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Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden
Interviewee:
Bolden, Ethel Evangeline Martin, 1918-2002
Interviewer:
Benson, Sarah Shaw
Copp, Roberta
Date:
October 26, 1995
Location:
1431 Assembly Street
Columbia, S.C. 29201
Identifier:
ohbolden, ohboldent
Rights:
Digital files copyright 2016, Richland Library. All rights reserved. For more information contact Richland Library, Columbia, SC 29201.
Description:
Ethel Bolden is a former member of the Richland County Public Library Board of Trustees and former Dreher High School Librarian. She is also the mother of astronaut Charles Bolden. In this interview with librarians Sarah Benson and Robin Copp, she discusses the importance of libraries to their communities. She also recalls the existence of segregated libraries in Columbia and the gradual and peaceful integration of those libraries.Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
Page 2
Log:
00:00/p.3
Bolden describes her upbringing.
01:30/p.3
Bolden states that her grandmother, Sarah Martin, had a great influence on her and instilled in her a love for books and people.
03:35/p.3
Bolden discusses how she came to Columbia. She graduated from Booker T. Washington School.
05:50/p.3
Bolden recalls that after she graduated from college in 1940 she returned to Columbia and became a teacher at Waverly School.
07:30/p.4
Bolden states she went to Atlanta University to become a librarian. At that time there were no library schools for African Americans in South Carolina.
10:40/p.4
After getting her library degree, Bolden states that she worked as a librarian at Waverly and then W. A. Perry schools in Richland One.
12:30/p.5
Bolden recalls that she met Augusta Baker through the Palmetto Education Association, a library organization for African American librarians.
15:20/p.6
Bolden remembers being a patron of the Richland County Public Library. She recalls the Waverly and Phyllis Wheatley libraries and the librarians Mrs. Wheeler and Mrs. Tally.
18:34/p.6
Bolden discusses being asked to serve on the Richland County Public Library Board of Trustees.
22:17/p.7
Bolden describes the importance of libraries in a community.
31:30/p.8
Bolden recalls the integration of the Richland County Public Library.
35:20/p.9
On integration, Bolden states that groups of right-minded people cooperated together for a successful effort.
43:00/p.10
Bolden remembers the great impact that Nancy Jane Day had on expanding library services in South Carolina. Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
Page 3
BENSON: This is Ethel Bolden, long time board member of Richland County Public Library, and I just want to ask you a few questions. First of all, please describe your background. Where you’re from, where you grew up, where you went to school?
BOLDEN: Well, I was born in Charleston, South Carolina, but I only stayed there about three years. And, if you know anything about history, you know something about the Great Migration. I was born just before that particular movement, and my father went to Chicago as a part of that movement, and he was supposed to send back for his family. But, he met with some misfortune in Chicago and he never did, so my mother moved to Columbia, South Carolina with four children -- three boys and a girl. And, many times people talk about all women in the family, but I had some strong women in my family. And, my mother, my grandmother, my aunts did a fantastic job -- I think -- with bringing us up in Columbia. And, in a small town, about 20 miles from Columbia, called Peak -- have you ever heard of it?
BENSON: Yes.
BOLDEN: Well, Peak is a little town with a mission school -- at that time it had a mission school -- and my grandmother was a teacher in the mission school. And, of course, I think I loved my grandmother about as much or more as I did my mother because I knew more about her, and because she taught me a lot of things. But, what I remember most is she taught me a love for books and for people. And that’s the beginning of that. I know I got that from my grandmother. Her name was Sarah Martin and she was a teacher in the St. Simon’s Mission School in Peak. And, she used to read to me even Paul Laurence Dunbar’s poems which have lasted through the years. And, I just -- I just really loved reading all my life, but I really got it from her. Then, I had a kind of sad childhood, if you call it that, because I was constantly losing people with whom I was associated. First, my mother passed, and then I started living with my grandmother; and then she passed away. And, then I had to live with my aunt; and she -- for a while -- she wasn’t able to keep us in her home. But, she always saw to it that we were with the family. And when I say “we” I mean my brother and I. Because, it was never the desire of anybody to separate the two of us -- my younger brother and I -- so we were very close. And, came to Columbia and went to school in the public schools of Richland County. Graduated from Booker T. Washington High School, which was the only school for -- all for African Americans in those days, the only high school in Columbia. And most people my age graduated from Booker T. Washington. A school which we’re very proud of, or we were very proud of in this state. Then, when I left Booker T. Washington I entered junior high school in Concord, North Carolina. The name of the school was Barber-Scotia Junior College; it was a Presbyterian school. And there I came in contact with a lady by the name of Robbie Goodlow who was a librarian at Barber-Scotia, and she was one of the best role models anybody could wish for -- still alive too. She lives in Beaufort, South Carolina. And, from the group of girls that were there with her, I think she got eight librarians --
BENSON: Oh my goodness (laughter).
BOLDEN: -- so you could see what an impact she had on our lives. Eight good librarians -- I Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
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would say -- too. And all of us went to library school when we got the chance; we couldn’t go when we went directly out of college. After I left Barber-Scotia, I told you it was a junior college, I went to senior college at Johnson C. Smith in Charlotte, North Carolina. And of course, I did not get any chance to participate in library work there, but I was constantly in the library there and had a love for it. Never, never forgot about. When I got out of Johnson C. Smith -- which was about 1940 -- I had to work, so I got a job teaching. I taught fourth grade in Richland District One for about four years. And, I said, am I too long?
BENSON: Not at all! No, this is wonderful. Please go on.
BOLDEN: I should never forget when I -- my first day of school. At first, they told me they didn’t have any jobs for people right out of college -- like me, I was young and so forth, but, somehow, a job came up at Waverly School, the very day I was getting ready to go home. Got on to Martinville, I think it was, to teach. And, of course I really went for that because I wanted to be home. I taught at Waverly School for four years, and never got the idea out of my head that I wanted to go to library school. So I had -- I was married in 1941. I had a family, when my husband came back from the army -- because at that time it was World War II -- and still thinking about, “I’m going to library school one day.” But I was teaching in the meantime. And, after about, I would say, four years -- I can’t remember the number of years -- but I finally got my chance at going to library school. And, I chose to go to Atlanta University, because I thought that was the best school near where I lived. And, I thought I could come home and prove that I was near home, but I had too much work to ever come home. They really worked you there, I think I’ll stop right there.
COPP: Did -- while you were in Atlanta, did the children go with you, or did they stay here in Columbia?
BOLDEN: My husband told me… At that particular time, there was no library school to which I could have gone in South Carolina. And the State at that time, if there was not a school in South Carolina, that offered African Americans what they wanted or what they needed, the State would supplement the money with State aid. And so, I got offered a scholarship from Carnegie Corporation, and with the State aid that I got I was able to go to Atlanta at practically no cost to me. And, that’s how I got down there. My husband said he just couldn’t bear the thought of my going away every summer, it would have meant five summers. It would take five summers for you to get a library degree. And he said, why don’t you just go to school and do it all at one time, and I’ll keep the children. And he did. And it always amazes people how back in the 50s a man would say, “I’ll keep the children.” But, that’s what he did. He was always very supportive of what I wanted to do.
COPP: How long did it take you, going full time?
BOLDEN: I went one academic year, and I made the mistake of not doing my thesis. And, my husband always said I shouldn’t leave without doing it, but I told him I wanted to come home, and I would do my thesis later. And, so, although I finished my coursework in 1954, I did not do my thesis and finish the school until about three years later.
COPP: But, you finished? (laughter) Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
Page 5
BOLDEN: But I did finish.
BENSON: Good, good.
BOLDEN: And, in fact my thesis was on a pioneer librarian, Susan Dart Butler, who started a library in Charleston.
COPP: In Charleston. Yes.
BOLDEN: Right.
COPP: I remember doing some research on her.
BOLDEN: Yes, she was an interesting person.
BENSON: So, after you finished your library degree, did you use it right away?
BOLDEN: Oh, well I was on leave. I had sabbatical from the public schools here, so I had to come back -- if you have sabbatical, you’re obligated to come back and spend some years. So, I came right back to District One.
COPP: As a teacher, or?
BOLDEN: As a librarian.
BENSON: Which school?
BOLDEN: When I came back I was at Waverly Elementary school, but shortly thereafter I went to W. A. Perry Middle School.
COPP: Right after it opened?
BOLDEN: In fact, I went there when it opened.
BENSON: Oh.
BOLDEN: An interesting sideline is my principal, who was Mr. C.W. Fields, came to me one day and said, “Mrs. Bolden --“ he was elected the new principal of W. A. Perry and he said, “Mrs. Bolden, if you would go to Perry with me, and Mrs. Shelton,” who was the dietician, “and Mrs. Shelton would go to Perry with me, the two places I would never have to worry about -- the library and the cafeteria.” (laughter)
COPP: What kind of library organizations were there in the 50s when you finished school?
BOLDEN: Well, there was the Palmetto Education Association which had a division, and I once chaired that division of the library school for service. It was very strong. I don’t think I remember working with an organization that was stronger than that. All of the African-American librarians in South Carolina belonged to it and we had a real program. A real program.
COPP: Did you have workshops?
BOLDEN: We had workshops and we invited some of the top people in library service from all over the country.
COPP: Is that where you first met Augusta Baker?
BOLDEN: That is where I first met Augusta Baker. And then I met her -- I became more acquainted with her when she visited South Carolina State. Not only did I work in the public schools, but my time in the summer months, and sometimes in the afternoon, I taught librarians at just all of the colleges around here. Not at one time, but at various times, beginning with the Benedict and Allen summer school. And, I taught at Columbia College for a couple of years in the afternoon. I even taught at the University of South Carolina, when Mrs. Birch was there, for some afternoon classes. And, down at South Carolina State I was in a library science institute and Ms. Baker came in as a consultant. Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
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And then I learned more about her there, and story-telling.
COPP: Didn’t she come down to talk to the Palmetto Educational Organization? Didn’t she come for one of your conferences?
BOLDEN: I think she did, but I’m not sure. I’ll have to look that up. I’ll have to research that, because that was -- that was a long time ago. But, I knew of her at the New York Public Library, because my sister-in-law lived right above the 135th Street branch library. And, of course, she was quite a person with the New York Public Library. In those days, when I used to go up to see my sister-in-law, and I knew of this person.
BENSON: And you kept up with her ever since?
BOLDEN: I kept up with her, yes. With her work.
COPP: What’s always been interesting to me is that the lady that she worked for before she became head of children’s services, was a South Carolina librarian.
BOLDEN: She was?
BENSON: Mm-hmm.
BOLDEN: Oh, that is…
COPP: …who had gone on… her name slips my mind, but I’ll remember and tell you. But, she was head of the New York Library Children Services, and Mrs. Baker worked for her -- as her assistant. And then when she left, Ms. Baker moved up in to that position. And it’s always interested me that then Ms. Baker ended up coming down to South Carolina.
BOLDEN: Yes, she did.
BENSON: Well, I’d like to know how and when you became involved with the Richland County Public Library.
BOLDEN: To tell you the truth, I don’t know when I was not involved with the Richland County Public Library because as I used to carry my children to the library. And, Mrs. Wheeler was the librarian in the -- well, let me go back a little further than that. There was a lady by the name of Julia Tally. Mrs. Tally lived next door to me on Marion Street. Do you know where the Mann-Simons Cottage is?
BENSON: Right, yes.
BOLDEN: Well, we lived a block from Mann-Simon’s. Mrs. Tally’s family and my family. And that’s just two blocks from Main Street, and it was in an integrated neighborhood. This tells you a bit about the history of Columbia. People don’t believe that now, but that’s true. And, Mrs. Tally lived in a house right next door to mine, and I would see Mrs. Tally get her books under her arms, and bounce down that street going to -- right across the street -- to the little room that was over in the YWCA building. And that was called the Phyllis Wheatley Library. And, Mrs. Julia Tally would come down there every day as long as she lived in Columbia, and served as librarian there. And then I --
BENSON: So that --
BOLDEN: -- I’m still not -- I’m still using the library that was out on -- it was called Waverly Branch Library because Mrs. Wheeler was a friend of mine, and I just -- I was just a constant visitor down there. And then, during the -- was it 40s? When the WPA, you know anything about the WPA, they did a fantastic job with libraries. And there was a lady down there by the name of Mrs. Sally Foster; and Mrs. Foster learned how to bind books from the WPA project. And, of course, she -- I used to go down there and watch Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
Page 7
her, all doing that, we did much bookbinding.
COPP: Where did she work exactly?
BOLDEN: She worked at the Waverly Branch.
COPP: At the Waverly Branch.
BOLDEN: Yes, she did. For a long, long time. And, when the WPA was in action, they did a lot for libraries. Writing, and improving books, book collections, and what not.
COPP: And the training --
BOLDEN: And they taught people how to do those things.
COPP: And they trained the librarians too.
BOLDEN: That’s right. That’s right.
BENSON: Well, when did you become associated with the Board of Trustees of the Richland County Public Library?
BOLDEN: Well, I don’t -- let’s see, how did that happen? I don’t really -- I don’t remember too much about it except that you were elected by County Council. And, I guess they must’ve seen me as a pioneer librarian, and decided I would be a good person. So, I became a member of the Board of Trustees. But, the Board did not -- didn’t always have African American trustees, I think I might’ve been in the first group. And, that was during Mrs. King’s administration. And, it comes back to me kind of slowly now. There was a lady -- she was a banker -- and she was chairman of the library board at that time. Do you remember her name? It eludes me right now, but she was chairman of the Board of Trustees.
COPP: The only women bank--
BOLDEN: And I got involved through her.
COPP: The only woman banker I can think of is Modjeska Simkins.
BOLDEN: No, she -- this was a white woman. She was -- she was on the board of trustees and Mrs. King was the librarian. And the two of them working together, got me involved in the trustees. That was --
BENSON: And that was around what year, would you say?
BOLDEN: I should’ve gotten that together, shouldn’t I? I don’t remember what year that was. But anyway, I served -- I know I served under Mrs. King. And then, I rotated off the board several times. And, when -- by the time Mr. Warren came I was back on the Board.
COPP: I was going to say, you rotated off and rotated back on too, didn’t you?
BOLDEN: Yes I did.
BENSON: OK, and the number of years -- there was some rule?
BOLDEN: Yes, at that time, they stuck -- the only way I stayed as long as I did the last time is because we were in the building program, and we sort of stretched it that time. But, before then you really had to rotate off.
BENSON: Tell us about the building program you’re involvement.
BOLDEN: I never felt I was involved with the building as much as the men were because, you know how it is with -- I would sit in library board meetings and I learned a lot. But, I couldn’t say that I did a lot with the building program itself. But, let’s say I kept them honest by having them stick to what a library is supposed to be like. (laughter) And Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
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that’s very necessary…. Yeah, I think so. And also, not forgetting there’s a place for librarians like women. I think I’ve always held up for women in the library, not just the Board but in the library.
COPP: What do you think the library’s place in the community is?
BOLDEN: Well, it just upsets me every time I hear a person come on television, or write an article in the paper, and they tell what Columbia has to offer. And, if they don’t mention the library, my blood pressure goes up.
BENSON: (laughter)
BOLDEN: It really does, I’m sincere. And I have tried to figure out why this is, and I think a lot of people who are in important places never had much -- I don’t say “regard” -- but to them, the library was not sacred like it was to me. Let’s put it that way. When I say “sacred” I mean, I just don’t see how you could do without a library. It’s just the most important place.
COPP: Do you think people take the library for granted?
BOLDEN: That may be. That’s better said than the way I said it. Because we’ve always had them. And it could well be that they’ve always been taken for granted.
COPP: But you feel they’re very, very important?
BOLDEN: I do. I do. And when I go to a different town, that’s the first thing I want to see, is the library.
COPP: Do you think you can tell a lot about a community by its library?
BOLDEN: You can tell a lot about the community by its library. And you can -- the library can tell a lot about the community, because they come in contact with all the people. And, it’s strange how -- I think I’ll put this in parenthetically. When integration came about, the first people they used to integrate, were the counselors and librarians, before they did the teachers. And I would always say to myself, you know, people do not know the impact that libraries and librarians can have on people. You know? They thought that this could not get to the minds of people, or change some. And, to my -- in my estimation, librarians are -- can get to people better than anybody I know. And especially school librarians. And they can encourage them. And if librarians do what they should do, or if school librarians had done what they should have done, we wouldn’t have so many people now who will read one newspaper, or one magazine, and take it for the truth. Now, I always insisted that my children never take one source and believe it. And that to me is one of the most important things in America. Is -- I learned when I was in library school, that at that particular time, all of the leading newspapers were owned by five families in the United States. And we were taught that that had some influence on your thinking.
COPP: It did. Mm-hmm.
BOLDEN: (laughter) And I never forgot that. And so I thought, well I want to be free to think like I want to think.
BENSON: You hear what a lot of people think and then you decide what you think.
BOLDEN: Right.
BENSON: Could you elaborate on the library’s relationship and dealings with the county delegation? Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
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COPP: The County Council.
BENSON: The County Council.
BOLDEN: Well, I think if it were not for the fact that they run short on money that would be a very good relationship because I have been close to most people on County Council, and they think kindly of the library. And, if I meet them in the street, they would always say, “We’re going to remember the library.” You know, they associate certain people with the library, and I have promised them that I’m still not going to stop coming down. (laughter)
COPP: And making sure they remember.
BOLDEN: But, you have to do what you have to do, and that I realize. And, I know that if they could do more, they would do more because they have always come up with almost what we wanted. Almost. (laughter)
COPP: Do you think the bond drive -- when we erased the bond-building program, had an impact on County Council? Did they then realize how important the library was to the community?
BOLDEN: It did some. It did. They knew then that the community would take no less than a good library system.
COPP: Do you think that’s helped?
BOLDEN: It helped a lot, I think. It helped a lot. Because, when the people speak, I think they listen. And that was -- that gave people a chance to speak.
COPP: As a voter, that’s the way I felt.
BOLDEN: That’s right, that’s right.
COPP: How -- can you tell us how the Board of Trustees is elected and chosen? What are the components?
BOLDEN: Well, you are at liberty to recommend people to County Council. But, County Council has the ultimate decision to make. And I guess, of course they go by the constituents of their particular communities, that’s the way they get there. They were very generous to us when our building program was going on. Especially, did they not want to -- Mr. McKay was very helpful. Mr. Warren was tops. And the two of them made a good combination, and I don’t think that anybody would have wanted to interfere with that. Kind of poster-board; it was very cooperative, and they worked well together.
BENSON: What other kind of changes within the library have you been involved with besides the building project? Can you think of over the years about things that have changed in what you’ve been involved in?
BOLDEN: Changes -- well I – Gerda Kahn and I started a little library down in one of the housing units, Latimer Manner. And, that was a feat that I don’t think anybody would have undertaken but her. And, I helped her for a while, and we came up with some discoveries, that I think really helped that community. Because we had a good little library down there. There wasn’t a library in that part of town. And, we discovered that the reason the children did not appreciate the library as they should have, was because there was no sense of community in that particular housing unit. And there was no sense of community -- we discovered this -- there was no sense of community because the children were being bussed out to various schools. I think those children went to Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
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five different elementary schools. Now, it really wasn’t our business to say something about this. But, every time I got a chance I said -- whenever something happened in that community -- I would always say, “You know, there’s no wonder things don’t do well down there. You cannot do that. You can’t separate people in the community and send a group here, and a group there, and a group there, and expect them to get along when they get back. They need a sense of community.” And I -- believe it or not -- that little library didn’t do too well. But, I think we might have brought the community together right there. And, now you seldom here that. And, I think they are divided.
COPP: What affect did integration have on Columbia and on the library, did you notice?
BOLDEN: Oh, on Columbia? Now…the library has never -- I think it integrated without fanfare, and there’s never been any big noise made of it. But, I don’t know of any unpleasant experiences that happened with the library. I must tell you a comical one, however. (laughter) I brought my little niece -- came down from New York -- and I took her down to -- when the libraries was segregated -- I took her down to the Waverly Branch Library because she just kept pulling me by the hand, “Aunt Ethel, I want to go to the library.” Because she lived right over the New York Public Library 135th Street Branch. And she -- her mother had taught her to love the library so she wanted to go. This was one summer. And, I took her to the only library we had, which was the Waverly Branch library. And when I got to the door she pulled back with all the gusto she had, and said, “I don’t want to go in this church. This church is not a library.” It was still a church, and it did look like a church, but it was the only library we had. But she did put up a fight. Shortly after that I think we...
COPP: Went in.
BOLDEN: But it was a gradual process, and to tell you the truth, the thing that everybody asks me is when it was integrated, I really don’t know. I mean, you know, it just --
COPP: Yeah.
BOLDEN: -- it just. We just did it.
COPP: You mentioned that the neighborhood was integrated.
BOLDEN: Yes.
COPP: I lived in a small town in South Carolina and it too was that way, and still is. And it’s very hard for northerners to believe that, but...
BOLDEN: It is.
BENSON: In fact they were integrated.
BOLDEN: They were. They really were. And the businesses in that neighborhood now, but it was, as I said, just two blocks from Main Street. I met my neighbor yesterday in an eating place, and we were so glad to see each other. She was from the Hitchcock family. Doris. And my aunt used to sew for her…this is not for taping I guess…(laughter)
BENSON: Now that’s part of the history of Columbia.
BOLDEN: It’s the history of Columbia. And we were so happy to see each other because we had lived side by side for years. And, she was -- at that time, believe it or not, yesterday she was still trying to associate me with dates and she was asking me, “When does such and such a thing happen?” Which, you asked me how am I involved with the library, well even at home I’m always a walking library. And I can tell more people, you know, “Get it Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
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from the library. Go to the library.” As a public relations person I think I’m one of the best.
BENSON: I think you are too.
COPP: Yeah, I agree. (laughter)
BENSON: Well, any other humorous incidents that you can recall involving this library or libraries in general?
BOLDEN: I have one of them, when -- you were talking about integration in Columbia. We’ve always had a group of people who have been working for integration. A successful integration, without just coming out saying, “We’re doing this, that, and the other.” I mean, they’re working together as individuals. Church people and people of right minds and like minds. And I remember a lady by the name of Mrs. Ledeen. She was -- her husband taught at the University where she was the first wife of Dr. Ledeen’s. And, she was a person who took me from Columbia to Atlanta on two occasions, to go to two workshops -- two different workshops on African American studies, and this was long before it became popular. Before people really came out talking about African American History. We were getting ready for it, but there wasn’t anything happening in South Carolina. So, she took me on two different occasions. One was to a workshop called “Books by and about African Americans” was held at Atlanta University. And the second one was another year, and it was “The Georgia Child’s Access to Books by and About African Americans.” So, Atlanta has always been far ahead in that kind of thing. And she knew about these workshops and the two of us went down. And one time she had made -- this is the comical part about it -- she had made reservations for us, the two of us, in a hotel; and it was an African American hotel, Paschal’s, and when we got there they declared that they didn’t have any reservations for us. And she said, “I know you do because I made them.” But they -- I guess they just couldn’t conceive of our coming together and coming down there, but we were before our time in those days. To me that was comical. She didn’t mind it. She did a lot. She was a great person, but she did a lot. My son had never -- never been with other children of another race -- they grew up in our neighborhood but, and they would -- a Mrs. Ledeen and other women would get together and have sessions with their -- some of our guidance counselors like Mrs. Millie Johnson. Did you get to know her?
COPP: She was a wonderful person.
BOLDEN: Yeah. They used to get together with the children and have sessions to kind of teach them how to get along with each other. Because up until that we had no kind of association. So, it’s been a kind of a slow process. But it’s because of people, like the people I told you about, who have made for success in the process.
COPP: It been more peaceful I think?
BOLDEN: Yes.
COPP: Than some other places.
BOLDEN: Right. Because they also had the Human Relations Counsel, which was also a group of people. Lester Bates was very, very instrumental in that. And, of course, I’m eternally grateful to him for contemplating a peaceful integration.
BENSON: How else has Columbia changed? Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
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BOLDEN: Hmm?
BENSON: I was thinking about the history of Columbia. How else has Columbia changed? You were talking about integration, but any other changes?
BOLDEN: The changes that I have seen, was a shift in the business community in Columbia. I -- every -- not -- maybe not every day, but most days, when I get up, I have an interview with somebody. Children or adults or somebody who wants to know what was Columbia like. Not that I’m supposed to remember it all, but it’s just that I have refreshed my memory more than most people because I have used the library.
COPP: (laughter)
BOLDEN: I saw a display up in the local history room and I went back home and I called up several people and told them that if they hadn’t seen it, to go down there and see it because there’s something in it about your church. And you should tell the people in your church. So, you do things like that and you bring people into the library. And then when somebody says, “Well, they don’t ever do anything down there.” That’s just not so, you just didn’t see it. They do good things down there.
COPP: We do lots of things here.
BOLDEN: Lots of good things. Not all -- I have seen a change in the attitude of librarians toward what people should have access to because -- I guess I shouldn’t say that I didn’t know too much about Mrs. Bostick, but I think she sort of kept a glass ceiling over most of the activities in the library, and there wasn’t but so much that you could do.
BENSON: Do you think we’ve expanded our activities?
BOLDEN: Oh, gracious me. Not only have you expanded, but attitudes have changed and all that. She was pretty close to Mrs. Wheeler but it was -- if you dealt with African Americans it was through Mrs. Wheeler, it was not through the person at the library. Mrs. King was more open, and welcome to more than Mrs. Bostick.
COPP: When you had the library in Waverly, who oversaw the libraries for the State Department of Education there?
BOLDEN: Oh, Mrs., I’m glad you mentioned that, because that is one of my favorite people. I don’t know how I could’ve forgotten to mention Mrs. Nancy Jane Day. And she would never let anybody do anything for her, or call her name, or give her any of the praise but that woman almost single-handedly through the State Department of Education, started libraries all over South Carolina. We did not have libraries in schools before her time. And she -- we got so much help through her. And, then there was the Department of Library Services at South Carolina State, and she worked very closely with them. And then most of the schools had courses for teacher librarians. And -- but, Mrs. Day was really the power behind library service in South Carolina. She died not too long ago.
COPP: That was sometime this year.
BOLDEN: Yeah, uh huh. So -- and I would always say to her, “Mrs. Day, why don’t you let --“ I’ve been told by several people that she would never let anybody honor her or anything like that. But, I give her a lot of the glory for library service in South Carolina. Nancy Jane Day.
COPP: She did it both for the Department of Education, but she did it for the State Library.
BOLDEN: She did, she did. And we knew her as the pioneer in South Carolina. She helped us, Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
Page 13
and then she saw to it that we helped other librarians. And when -- before she retired, she tried her best to get me to come to the State Department. In fact, she sent a teacher from South Carolina State to ask me if I would work with the State Department, and I told her “no”. I could never -- I like people; I could never shift papers around --
BENSON: (laughter)
BOLDEN: -- like books and things, like that. I like to put books and people together, and it just wasn’t... but she tried her best. I always say Mrs. Day gave me my one chance, because I would have really -- I mean, that was a top job at that time, and there was nobody else in the State Department who was African American at that time. And, it was my one chance, but I just refused to take it because it wasn’t something I wanted to do.
COPP: And so you stayed as a librarian?
BOLDEN: I stayed with the public library -- I mean, with the libraries in District One. Oh yeah, and let me tell you about the public library and my library training. When I was in Atlanta in school, I needed one more course, and my dean, Dr. Jones said, “You’re gonna take a course in public library.” And I said, “Oh no, I will never need that, because I would never work in a public library.” She said, “But, you don’t know where you will work. You are going to take a course in public library.” And I did, I took it, and it was one of the most enjoyable ones. And what I learned about what a trustee should do, the responsibilities of the trustees and what not. I learned from that course, never thinking that I would be a trustee.
BENSON: See, she knew!
BOLDEN: She knew I would. (laughter) And she told me I would. But, I learned and awful lot. So, it helped me to agree or disagree with whatever went on, of course I seldom had the case to disagree. Because, most of them -- you take good leadership, which the Richland County Public Library -- so you always know they’re on the right track if you have any knowledge of librarianship, you know that you’re in good hands.
BENSON: Well, we certainly have appreciated all of your hard work.
BOLDEN: Well, I’ve tried. (laughter)
BENSON: And we’ve appreciated you coming today.
COPP: Yes.
BOLDEN: Yes.
COPP: We thank you very much.
BENSON: Thank you.
COPP: Is there anything else you need that you want to add?
BOLDEN: I can’t think of anything. If you -- maybe if you look through that paper you might want to ask me some questions about that.
BENSON: Well, maybe at a later time.
BOLDEN: Yes, I’ll be glad to come back at any time.
COPP: I remember from a librarian who stayed to work for us; middle name was Lander. It something-Lander-something. I’ll get back to you.
BOLDEN: Right, right.
COPP: But, we really appreciate your talking to us.
BENSON: Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Thank you. Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library
Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995
Page 14
BOLDEN: I appreciate your asking me.
End - Oral History Interview with Ethel M. Bolden
Object Description
Description
| Title | Transcript of Oral History with Ethel Bolden |
| Identifier | ohboldent |
| Transcript | Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden Interviewee: Bolden, Ethel Evangeline Martin, 1918-2002 Interviewer: Benson, Sarah Shaw Copp, Roberta Date: October 26, 1995 Location: 1431 Assembly Street Columbia, S.C. 29201 Identifier: ohbolden, ohboldent Rights: Digital files copyright 2016, Richland Library. All rights reserved. For more information contact Richland Library, Columbia, SC 29201. Description: Ethel Bolden is a former member of the Richland County Public Library Board of Trustees and former Dreher High School Librarian. She is also the mother of astronaut Charles Bolden. In this interview with librarians Sarah Benson and Robin Copp, she discusses the importance of libraries to their communities. She also recalls the existence of segregated libraries in Columbia and the gradual and peaceful integration of those libraries.Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 2 Log: 00:00/p.3 Bolden describes her upbringing. 01:30/p.3 Bolden states that her grandmother, Sarah Martin, had a great influence on her and instilled in her a love for books and people. 03:35/p.3 Bolden discusses how she came to Columbia. She graduated from Booker T. Washington School. 05:50/p.3 Bolden recalls that after she graduated from college in 1940 she returned to Columbia and became a teacher at Waverly School. 07:30/p.4 Bolden states she went to Atlanta University to become a librarian. At that time there were no library schools for African Americans in South Carolina. 10:40/p.4 After getting her library degree, Bolden states that she worked as a librarian at Waverly and then W. A. Perry schools in Richland One. 12:30/p.5 Bolden recalls that she met Augusta Baker through the Palmetto Education Association, a library organization for African American librarians. 15:20/p.6 Bolden remembers being a patron of the Richland County Public Library. She recalls the Waverly and Phyllis Wheatley libraries and the librarians Mrs. Wheeler and Mrs. Tally. 18:34/p.6 Bolden discusses being asked to serve on the Richland County Public Library Board of Trustees. 22:17/p.7 Bolden describes the importance of libraries in a community. 31:30/p.8 Bolden recalls the integration of the Richland County Public Library. 35:20/p.9 On integration, Bolden states that groups of right-minded people cooperated together for a successful effort. 43:00/p.10 Bolden remembers the great impact that Nancy Jane Day had on expanding library services in South Carolina. Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 3 BENSON: This is Ethel Bolden, long time board member of Richland County Public Library, and I just want to ask you a few questions. First of all, please describe your background. Where you’re from, where you grew up, where you went to school? BOLDEN: Well, I was born in Charleston, South Carolina, but I only stayed there about three years. And, if you know anything about history, you know something about the Great Migration. I was born just before that particular movement, and my father went to Chicago as a part of that movement, and he was supposed to send back for his family. But, he met with some misfortune in Chicago and he never did, so my mother moved to Columbia, South Carolina with four children -- three boys and a girl. And, many times people talk about all women in the family, but I had some strong women in my family. And, my mother, my grandmother, my aunts did a fantastic job -- I think -- with bringing us up in Columbia. And, in a small town, about 20 miles from Columbia, called Peak -- have you ever heard of it? BENSON: Yes. BOLDEN: Well, Peak is a little town with a mission school -- at that time it had a mission school -- and my grandmother was a teacher in the mission school. And, of course, I think I loved my grandmother about as much or more as I did my mother because I knew more about her, and because she taught me a lot of things. But, what I remember most is she taught me a love for books and for people. And that’s the beginning of that. I know I got that from my grandmother. Her name was Sarah Martin and she was a teacher in the St. Simon’s Mission School in Peak. And, she used to read to me even Paul Laurence Dunbar’s poems which have lasted through the years. And, I just -- I just really loved reading all my life, but I really got it from her. Then, I had a kind of sad childhood, if you call it that, because I was constantly losing people with whom I was associated. First, my mother passed, and then I started living with my grandmother; and then she passed away. And, then I had to live with my aunt; and she -- for a while -- she wasn’t able to keep us in her home. But, she always saw to it that we were with the family. And when I say “we” I mean my brother and I. Because, it was never the desire of anybody to separate the two of us -- my younger brother and I -- so we were very close. And, came to Columbia and went to school in the public schools of Richland County. Graduated from Booker T. Washington High School, which was the only school for -- all for African Americans in those days, the only high school in Columbia. And most people my age graduated from Booker T. Washington. A school which we’re very proud of, or we were very proud of in this state. Then, when I left Booker T. Washington I entered junior high school in Concord, North Carolina. The name of the school was Barber-Scotia Junior College; it was a Presbyterian school. And there I came in contact with a lady by the name of Robbie Goodlow who was a librarian at Barber-Scotia, and she was one of the best role models anybody could wish for -- still alive too. She lives in Beaufort, South Carolina. And, from the group of girls that were there with her, I think she got eight librarians -- BENSON: Oh my goodness (laughter). BOLDEN: -- so you could see what an impact she had on our lives. Eight good librarians -- I Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 4 would say -- too. And all of us went to library school when we got the chance; we couldn’t go when we went directly out of college. After I left Barber-Scotia, I told you it was a junior college, I went to senior college at Johnson C. Smith in Charlotte, North Carolina. And of course, I did not get any chance to participate in library work there, but I was constantly in the library there and had a love for it. Never, never forgot about. When I got out of Johnson C. Smith -- which was about 1940 -- I had to work, so I got a job teaching. I taught fourth grade in Richland District One for about four years. And, I said, am I too long? BENSON: Not at all! No, this is wonderful. Please go on. BOLDEN: I should never forget when I -- my first day of school. At first, they told me they didn’t have any jobs for people right out of college -- like me, I was young and so forth, but, somehow, a job came up at Waverly School, the very day I was getting ready to go home. Got on to Martinville, I think it was, to teach. And, of course I really went for that because I wanted to be home. I taught at Waverly School for four years, and never got the idea out of my head that I wanted to go to library school. So I had -- I was married in 1941. I had a family, when my husband came back from the army -- because at that time it was World War II -- and still thinking about, “I’m going to library school one day.” But I was teaching in the meantime. And, after about, I would say, four years -- I can’t remember the number of years -- but I finally got my chance at going to library school. And, I chose to go to Atlanta University, because I thought that was the best school near where I lived. And, I thought I could come home and prove that I was near home, but I had too much work to ever come home. They really worked you there, I think I’ll stop right there. COPP: Did -- while you were in Atlanta, did the children go with you, or did they stay here in Columbia? BOLDEN: My husband told me… At that particular time, there was no library school to which I could have gone in South Carolina. And the State at that time, if there was not a school in South Carolina, that offered African Americans what they wanted or what they needed, the State would supplement the money with State aid. And so, I got offered a scholarship from Carnegie Corporation, and with the State aid that I got I was able to go to Atlanta at practically no cost to me. And, that’s how I got down there. My husband said he just couldn’t bear the thought of my going away every summer, it would have meant five summers. It would take five summers for you to get a library degree. And he said, why don’t you just go to school and do it all at one time, and I’ll keep the children. And he did. And it always amazes people how back in the 50s a man would say, “I’ll keep the children.” But, that’s what he did. He was always very supportive of what I wanted to do. COPP: How long did it take you, going full time? BOLDEN: I went one academic year, and I made the mistake of not doing my thesis. And, my husband always said I shouldn’t leave without doing it, but I told him I wanted to come home, and I would do my thesis later. And, so, although I finished my coursework in 1954, I did not do my thesis and finish the school until about three years later. COPP: But, you finished? (laughter) Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 5 BOLDEN: But I did finish. BENSON: Good, good. BOLDEN: And, in fact my thesis was on a pioneer librarian, Susan Dart Butler, who started a library in Charleston. COPP: In Charleston. Yes. BOLDEN: Right. COPP: I remember doing some research on her. BOLDEN: Yes, she was an interesting person. BENSON: So, after you finished your library degree, did you use it right away? BOLDEN: Oh, well I was on leave. I had sabbatical from the public schools here, so I had to come back -- if you have sabbatical, you’re obligated to come back and spend some years. So, I came right back to District One. COPP: As a teacher, or? BOLDEN: As a librarian. BENSON: Which school? BOLDEN: When I came back I was at Waverly Elementary school, but shortly thereafter I went to W. A. Perry Middle School. COPP: Right after it opened? BOLDEN: In fact, I went there when it opened. BENSON: Oh. BOLDEN: An interesting sideline is my principal, who was Mr. C.W. Fields, came to me one day and said, “Mrs. Bolden --“ he was elected the new principal of W. A. Perry and he said, “Mrs. Bolden, if you would go to Perry with me, and Mrs. Shelton,” who was the dietician, “and Mrs. Shelton would go to Perry with me, the two places I would never have to worry about -- the library and the cafeteria.” (laughter) COPP: What kind of library organizations were there in the 50s when you finished school? BOLDEN: Well, there was the Palmetto Education Association which had a division, and I once chaired that division of the library school for service. It was very strong. I don’t think I remember working with an organization that was stronger than that. All of the African-American librarians in South Carolina belonged to it and we had a real program. A real program. COPP: Did you have workshops? BOLDEN: We had workshops and we invited some of the top people in library service from all over the country. COPP: Is that where you first met Augusta Baker? BOLDEN: That is where I first met Augusta Baker. And then I met her -- I became more acquainted with her when she visited South Carolina State. Not only did I work in the public schools, but my time in the summer months, and sometimes in the afternoon, I taught librarians at just all of the colleges around here. Not at one time, but at various times, beginning with the Benedict and Allen summer school. And, I taught at Columbia College for a couple of years in the afternoon. I even taught at the University of South Carolina, when Mrs. Birch was there, for some afternoon classes. And, down at South Carolina State I was in a library science institute and Ms. Baker came in as a consultant. Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 6 And then I learned more about her there, and story-telling. COPP: Didn’t she come down to talk to the Palmetto Educational Organization? Didn’t she come for one of your conferences? BOLDEN: I think she did, but I’m not sure. I’ll have to look that up. I’ll have to research that, because that was -- that was a long time ago. But, I knew of her at the New York Public Library, because my sister-in-law lived right above the 135th Street branch library. And, of course, she was quite a person with the New York Public Library. In those days, when I used to go up to see my sister-in-law, and I knew of this person. BENSON: And you kept up with her ever since? BOLDEN: I kept up with her, yes. With her work. COPP: What’s always been interesting to me is that the lady that she worked for before she became head of children’s services, was a South Carolina librarian. BOLDEN: She was? BENSON: Mm-hmm. BOLDEN: Oh, that is… COPP: …who had gone on… her name slips my mind, but I’ll remember and tell you. But, she was head of the New York Library Children Services, and Mrs. Baker worked for her -- as her assistant. And then when she left, Ms. Baker moved up in to that position. And it’s always interested me that then Ms. Baker ended up coming down to South Carolina. BOLDEN: Yes, she did. BENSON: Well, I’d like to know how and when you became involved with the Richland County Public Library. BOLDEN: To tell you the truth, I don’t know when I was not involved with the Richland County Public Library because as I used to carry my children to the library. And, Mrs. Wheeler was the librarian in the -- well, let me go back a little further than that. There was a lady by the name of Julia Tally. Mrs. Tally lived next door to me on Marion Street. Do you know where the Mann-Simons Cottage is? BENSON: Right, yes. BOLDEN: Well, we lived a block from Mann-Simon’s. Mrs. Tally’s family and my family. And that’s just two blocks from Main Street, and it was in an integrated neighborhood. This tells you a bit about the history of Columbia. People don’t believe that now, but that’s true. And, Mrs. Tally lived in a house right next door to mine, and I would see Mrs. Tally get her books under her arms, and bounce down that street going to -- right across the street -- to the little room that was over in the YWCA building. And that was called the Phyllis Wheatley Library. And, Mrs. Julia Tally would come down there every day as long as she lived in Columbia, and served as librarian there. And then I -- BENSON: So that -- BOLDEN: -- I’m still not -- I’m still using the library that was out on -- it was called Waverly Branch Library because Mrs. Wheeler was a friend of mine, and I just -- I was just a constant visitor down there. And then, during the -- was it 40s? When the WPA, you know anything about the WPA, they did a fantastic job with libraries. And there was a lady down there by the name of Mrs. Sally Foster; and Mrs. Foster learned how to bind books from the WPA project. And, of course, she -- I used to go down there and watch Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 7 her, all doing that, we did much bookbinding. COPP: Where did she work exactly? BOLDEN: She worked at the Waverly Branch. COPP: At the Waverly Branch. BOLDEN: Yes, she did. For a long, long time. And, when the WPA was in action, they did a lot for libraries. Writing, and improving books, book collections, and what not. COPP: And the training -- BOLDEN: And they taught people how to do those things. COPP: And they trained the librarians too. BOLDEN: That’s right. That’s right. BENSON: Well, when did you become associated with the Board of Trustees of the Richland County Public Library? BOLDEN: Well, I don’t -- let’s see, how did that happen? I don’t really -- I don’t remember too much about it except that you were elected by County Council. And, I guess they must’ve seen me as a pioneer librarian, and decided I would be a good person. So, I became a member of the Board of Trustees. But, the Board did not -- didn’t always have African American trustees, I think I might’ve been in the first group. And, that was during Mrs. King’s administration. And, it comes back to me kind of slowly now. There was a lady -- she was a banker -- and she was chairman of the library board at that time. Do you remember her name? It eludes me right now, but she was chairman of the Board of Trustees. COPP: The only women bank-- BOLDEN: And I got involved through her. COPP: The only woman banker I can think of is Modjeska Simkins. BOLDEN: No, she -- this was a white woman. She was -- she was on the board of trustees and Mrs. King was the librarian. And the two of them working together, got me involved in the trustees. That was -- BENSON: And that was around what year, would you say? BOLDEN: I should’ve gotten that together, shouldn’t I? I don’t remember what year that was. But anyway, I served -- I know I served under Mrs. King. And then, I rotated off the board several times. And, when -- by the time Mr. Warren came I was back on the Board. COPP: I was going to say, you rotated off and rotated back on too, didn’t you? BOLDEN: Yes I did. BENSON: OK, and the number of years -- there was some rule? BOLDEN: Yes, at that time, they stuck -- the only way I stayed as long as I did the last time is because we were in the building program, and we sort of stretched it that time. But, before then you really had to rotate off. BENSON: Tell us about the building program you’re involvement. BOLDEN: I never felt I was involved with the building as much as the men were because, you know how it is with -- I would sit in library board meetings and I learned a lot. But, I couldn’t say that I did a lot with the building program itself. But, let’s say I kept them honest by having them stick to what a library is supposed to be like. (laughter) And Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 8 that’s very necessary…. Yeah, I think so. And also, not forgetting there’s a place for librarians like women. I think I’ve always held up for women in the library, not just the Board but in the library. COPP: What do you think the library’s place in the community is? BOLDEN: Well, it just upsets me every time I hear a person come on television, or write an article in the paper, and they tell what Columbia has to offer. And, if they don’t mention the library, my blood pressure goes up. BENSON: (laughter) BOLDEN: It really does, I’m sincere. And I have tried to figure out why this is, and I think a lot of people who are in important places never had much -- I don’t say “regard” -- but to them, the library was not sacred like it was to me. Let’s put it that way. When I say “sacred” I mean, I just don’t see how you could do without a library. It’s just the most important place. COPP: Do you think people take the library for granted? BOLDEN: That may be. That’s better said than the way I said it. Because we’ve always had them. And it could well be that they’ve always been taken for granted. COPP: But you feel they’re very, very important? BOLDEN: I do. I do. And when I go to a different town, that’s the first thing I want to see, is the library. COPP: Do you think you can tell a lot about a community by its library? BOLDEN: You can tell a lot about the community by its library. And you can -- the library can tell a lot about the community, because they come in contact with all the people. And, it’s strange how -- I think I’ll put this in parenthetically. When integration came about, the first people they used to integrate, were the counselors and librarians, before they did the teachers. And I would always say to myself, you know, people do not know the impact that libraries and librarians can have on people. You know? They thought that this could not get to the minds of people, or change some. And, to my -- in my estimation, librarians are -- can get to people better than anybody I know. And especially school librarians. And they can encourage them. And if librarians do what they should do, or if school librarians had done what they should have done, we wouldn’t have so many people now who will read one newspaper, or one magazine, and take it for the truth. Now, I always insisted that my children never take one source and believe it. And that to me is one of the most important things in America. Is -- I learned when I was in library school, that at that particular time, all of the leading newspapers were owned by five families in the United States. And we were taught that that had some influence on your thinking. COPP: It did. Mm-hmm. BOLDEN: (laughter) And I never forgot that. And so I thought, well I want to be free to think like I want to think. BENSON: You hear what a lot of people think and then you decide what you think. BOLDEN: Right. BENSON: Could you elaborate on the library’s relationship and dealings with the county delegation? Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 9 COPP: The County Council. BENSON: The County Council. BOLDEN: Well, I think if it were not for the fact that they run short on money that would be a very good relationship because I have been close to most people on County Council, and they think kindly of the library. And, if I meet them in the street, they would always say, “We’re going to remember the library.” You know, they associate certain people with the library, and I have promised them that I’m still not going to stop coming down. (laughter) COPP: And making sure they remember. BOLDEN: But, you have to do what you have to do, and that I realize. And, I know that if they could do more, they would do more because they have always come up with almost what we wanted. Almost. (laughter) COPP: Do you think the bond drive -- when we erased the bond-building program, had an impact on County Council? Did they then realize how important the library was to the community? BOLDEN: It did some. It did. They knew then that the community would take no less than a good library system. COPP: Do you think that’s helped? BOLDEN: It helped a lot, I think. It helped a lot. Because, when the people speak, I think they listen. And that was -- that gave people a chance to speak. COPP: As a voter, that’s the way I felt. BOLDEN: That’s right, that’s right. COPP: How -- can you tell us how the Board of Trustees is elected and chosen? What are the components? BOLDEN: Well, you are at liberty to recommend people to County Council. But, County Council has the ultimate decision to make. And I guess, of course they go by the constituents of their particular communities, that’s the way they get there. They were very generous to us when our building program was going on. Especially, did they not want to -- Mr. McKay was very helpful. Mr. Warren was tops. And the two of them made a good combination, and I don’t think that anybody would have wanted to interfere with that. Kind of poster-board; it was very cooperative, and they worked well together. BENSON: What other kind of changes within the library have you been involved with besides the building project? Can you think of over the years about things that have changed in what you’ve been involved in? BOLDEN: Changes -- well I – Gerda Kahn and I started a little library down in one of the housing units, Latimer Manner. And, that was a feat that I don’t think anybody would have undertaken but her. And, I helped her for a while, and we came up with some discoveries, that I think really helped that community. Because we had a good little library down there. There wasn’t a library in that part of town. And, we discovered that the reason the children did not appreciate the library as they should have, was because there was no sense of community in that particular housing unit. And there was no sense of community -- we discovered this -- there was no sense of community because the children were being bussed out to various schools. I think those children went to Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 10 five different elementary schools. Now, it really wasn’t our business to say something about this. But, every time I got a chance I said -- whenever something happened in that community -- I would always say, “You know, there’s no wonder things don’t do well down there. You cannot do that. You can’t separate people in the community and send a group here, and a group there, and a group there, and expect them to get along when they get back. They need a sense of community.” And I -- believe it or not -- that little library didn’t do too well. But, I think we might have brought the community together right there. And, now you seldom here that. And, I think they are divided. COPP: What affect did integration have on Columbia and on the library, did you notice? BOLDEN: Oh, on Columbia? Now…the library has never -- I think it integrated without fanfare, and there’s never been any big noise made of it. But, I don’t know of any unpleasant experiences that happened with the library. I must tell you a comical one, however. (laughter) I brought my little niece -- came down from New York -- and I took her down to -- when the libraries was segregated -- I took her down to the Waverly Branch Library because she just kept pulling me by the hand, “Aunt Ethel, I want to go to the library.” Because she lived right over the New York Public Library 135th Street Branch. And she -- her mother had taught her to love the library so she wanted to go. This was one summer. And, I took her to the only library we had, which was the Waverly Branch library. And when I got to the door she pulled back with all the gusto she had, and said, “I don’t want to go in this church. This church is not a library.” It was still a church, and it did look like a church, but it was the only library we had. But she did put up a fight. Shortly after that I think we... COPP: Went in. BOLDEN: But it was a gradual process, and to tell you the truth, the thing that everybody asks me is when it was integrated, I really don’t know. I mean, you know, it just -- COPP: Yeah. BOLDEN: -- it just. We just did it. COPP: You mentioned that the neighborhood was integrated. BOLDEN: Yes. COPP: I lived in a small town in South Carolina and it too was that way, and still is. And it’s very hard for northerners to believe that, but... BOLDEN: It is. BENSON: In fact they were integrated. BOLDEN: They were. They really were. And the businesses in that neighborhood now, but it was, as I said, just two blocks from Main Street. I met my neighbor yesterday in an eating place, and we were so glad to see each other. She was from the Hitchcock family. Doris. And my aunt used to sew for her…this is not for taping I guess…(laughter) BENSON: Now that’s part of the history of Columbia. BOLDEN: It’s the history of Columbia. And we were so happy to see each other because we had lived side by side for years. And, she was -- at that time, believe it or not, yesterday she was still trying to associate me with dates and she was asking me, “When does such and such a thing happen?” Which, you asked me how am I involved with the library, well even at home I’m always a walking library. And I can tell more people, you know, “Get it Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 11 from the library. Go to the library.” As a public relations person I think I’m one of the best. BENSON: I think you are too. COPP: Yeah, I agree. (laughter) BENSON: Well, any other humorous incidents that you can recall involving this library or libraries in general? BOLDEN: I have one of them, when -- you were talking about integration in Columbia. We’ve always had a group of people who have been working for integration. A successful integration, without just coming out saying, “We’re doing this, that, and the other.” I mean, they’re working together as individuals. Church people and people of right minds and like minds. And I remember a lady by the name of Mrs. Ledeen. She was -- her husband taught at the University where she was the first wife of Dr. Ledeen’s. And, she was a person who took me from Columbia to Atlanta on two occasions, to go to two workshops -- two different workshops on African American studies, and this was long before it became popular. Before people really came out talking about African American History. We were getting ready for it, but there wasn’t anything happening in South Carolina. So, she took me on two different occasions. One was to a workshop called “Books by and about African Americans” was held at Atlanta University. And the second one was another year, and it was “The Georgia Child’s Access to Books by and About African Americans.” So, Atlanta has always been far ahead in that kind of thing. And she knew about these workshops and the two of us went down. And one time she had made -- this is the comical part about it -- she had made reservations for us, the two of us, in a hotel; and it was an African American hotel, Paschal’s, and when we got there they declared that they didn’t have any reservations for us. And she said, “I know you do because I made them.” But they -- I guess they just couldn’t conceive of our coming together and coming down there, but we were before our time in those days. To me that was comical. She didn’t mind it. She did a lot. She was a great person, but she did a lot. My son had never -- never been with other children of another race -- they grew up in our neighborhood but, and they would -- a Mrs. Ledeen and other women would get together and have sessions with their -- some of our guidance counselors like Mrs. Millie Johnson. Did you get to know her? COPP: She was a wonderful person. BOLDEN: Yeah. They used to get together with the children and have sessions to kind of teach them how to get along with each other. Because up until that we had no kind of association. So, it’s been a kind of a slow process. But it’s because of people, like the people I told you about, who have made for success in the process. COPP: It been more peaceful I think? BOLDEN: Yes. COPP: Than some other places. BOLDEN: Right. Because they also had the Human Relations Counsel, which was also a group of people. Lester Bates was very, very instrumental in that. And, of course, I’m eternally grateful to him for contemplating a peaceful integration. BENSON: How else has Columbia changed? Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 12 BOLDEN: Hmm? BENSON: I was thinking about the history of Columbia. How else has Columbia changed? You were talking about integration, but any other changes? BOLDEN: The changes that I have seen, was a shift in the business community in Columbia. I -- every -- not -- maybe not every day, but most days, when I get up, I have an interview with somebody. Children or adults or somebody who wants to know what was Columbia like. Not that I’m supposed to remember it all, but it’s just that I have refreshed my memory more than most people because I have used the library. COPP: (laughter) BOLDEN: I saw a display up in the local history room and I went back home and I called up several people and told them that if they hadn’t seen it, to go down there and see it because there’s something in it about your church. And you should tell the people in your church. So, you do things like that and you bring people into the library. And then when somebody says, “Well, they don’t ever do anything down there.” That’s just not so, you just didn’t see it. They do good things down there. COPP: We do lots of things here. BOLDEN: Lots of good things. Not all -- I have seen a change in the attitude of librarians toward what people should have access to because -- I guess I shouldn’t say that I didn’t know too much about Mrs. Bostick, but I think she sort of kept a glass ceiling over most of the activities in the library, and there wasn’t but so much that you could do. BENSON: Do you think we’ve expanded our activities? BOLDEN: Oh, gracious me. Not only have you expanded, but attitudes have changed and all that. She was pretty close to Mrs. Wheeler but it was -- if you dealt with African Americans it was through Mrs. Wheeler, it was not through the person at the library. Mrs. King was more open, and welcome to more than Mrs. Bostick. COPP: When you had the library in Waverly, who oversaw the libraries for the State Department of Education there? BOLDEN: Oh, Mrs., I’m glad you mentioned that, because that is one of my favorite people. I don’t know how I could’ve forgotten to mention Mrs. Nancy Jane Day. And she would never let anybody do anything for her, or call her name, or give her any of the praise but that woman almost single-handedly through the State Department of Education, started libraries all over South Carolina. We did not have libraries in schools before her time. And she -- we got so much help through her. And, then there was the Department of Library Services at South Carolina State, and she worked very closely with them. And then most of the schools had courses for teacher librarians. And -- but, Mrs. Day was really the power behind library service in South Carolina. She died not too long ago. COPP: That was sometime this year. BOLDEN: Yeah, uh huh. So -- and I would always say to her, “Mrs. Day, why don’t you let --“ I’ve been told by several people that she would never let anybody honor her or anything like that. But, I give her a lot of the glory for library service in South Carolina. Nancy Jane Day. COPP: She did it both for the Department of Education, but she did it for the State Library. BOLDEN: She did, she did. And we knew her as the pioneer in South Carolina. She helped us, Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 13 and then she saw to it that we helped other librarians. And when -- before she retired, she tried her best to get me to come to the State Department. In fact, she sent a teacher from South Carolina State to ask me if I would work with the State Department, and I told her “no”. I could never -- I like people; I could never shift papers around -- BENSON: (laughter) BOLDEN: -- like books and things, like that. I like to put books and people together, and it just wasn’t... but she tried her best. I always say Mrs. Day gave me my one chance, because I would have really -- I mean, that was a top job at that time, and there was nobody else in the State Department who was African American at that time. And, it was my one chance, but I just refused to take it because it wasn’t something I wanted to do. COPP: And so you stayed as a librarian? BOLDEN: I stayed with the public library -- I mean, with the libraries in District One. Oh yeah, and let me tell you about the public library and my library training. When I was in Atlanta in school, I needed one more course, and my dean, Dr. Jones said, “You’re gonna take a course in public library.” And I said, “Oh no, I will never need that, because I would never work in a public library.” She said, “But, you don’t know where you will work. You are going to take a course in public library.” And I did, I took it, and it was one of the most enjoyable ones. And what I learned about what a trustee should do, the responsibilities of the trustees and what not. I learned from that course, never thinking that I would be a trustee. BENSON: See, she knew! BOLDEN: She knew I would. (laughter) And she told me I would. But, I learned and awful lot. So, it helped me to agree or disagree with whatever went on, of course I seldom had the case to disagree. Because, most of them -- you take good leadership, which the Richland County Public Library -- so you always know they’re on the right track if you have any knowledge of librarianship, you know that you’re in good hands. BENSON: Well, we certainly have appreciated all of your hard work. BOLDEN: Well, I’ve tried. (laughter) BENSON: And we’ve appreciated you coming today. COPP: Yes. BOLDEN: Yes. COPP: We thank you very much. BENSON: Thank you. COPP: Is there anything else you need that you want to add? BOLDEN: I can’t think of anything. If you -- maybe if you look through that paper you might want to ask me some questions about that. BENSON: Well, maybe at a later time. BOLDEN: Yes, I’ll be glad to come back at any time. COPP: I remember from a librarian who stayed to work for us; middle name was Lander. It something-Lander-something. I’ll get back to you. BOLDEN: Right, right. COPP: But, we really appreciate your talking to us. BENSON: Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Thank you. Walker Local and Family History Center | Richland Library Oral History with Ethel Bolden, October 26, 1995 Page 14 BOLDEN: I appreciate your asking me. End - Oral History Interview with Ethel M. Bolden |
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